Will this be confused with the March of Havenholde in Springfield, Ohio? Gwyneth

Angie used to be associated with marche of Havenholde in Barony Flaming Gryphon, Midrelam, the areas she still appears to live in according to her area code, and no longer is... do they even know she's using thier name for this??????? I think not.

They know now.

Historic living was NOT low impact nor eco-sustainable. They cleared huge amounts of forest land to burn and build with, their farming methods would NOT sustain large numbers of people, and the animals were not well treated. Sounds like another hippie pipe dream.

Knowing angie fromthe old days, I have to warn folks against this venture.

There is another project attempting something similar: Baron's Haven Freehold, Inc. I have no personal connection with either project, other than having met the BHFI project organizer at Pennsic, but here's the web URL for anyone interested: http://bhfi.1st.net/ .

Our name The HavenHolde Alliance Incorporated is not copyrighted. We tried to contact Mr.Cunningham via e-mail twice and we recived no response. We assumed that the Shire HavenHolde either had no interest or qualms about the use of our name or that the e-mail link was dead. Our filing company did do a name check and they found no legal barrier to the use of our name. I spoke with Mr. Cunningham this evening. We will be meeting soon to further discuss this issue.

One, Our name is The HavenHolde Alliance Inc. Our filing company did a name check for "The HavenHolde Alliance Inc>" and verified that it was not in use. This idea for the company as well as the name is my daughter's She is 18 on April 30. She is highly upset at these attacks. She looked upto the members of HavenHolde and credits her success to the once fine example of chivalry she was shown. She chose this name in HONOR of HavenHolde. That we may be a mirror of the quality of the founding members of HavenHolde many of whom are no longer involved in the Marche of HavenHolde Two, Is anyone reading this the same person they were 10 yrs ago? Three, Who are you that you defame me and hide under an anonymous name? Four This is very unchivalrous. Five, This type of behaviour is EXACTLY why so many people including myself left the SCA. Six, "the old days" was over 10 years ago. I was 24. The "old days" are just that Old. Wanna talk about old days..Flaming Gryphon was quite a wild Barony. We ALL created LOTS of good stories in those days:} No one who critsized me in these posts me even bothered to email or phone to inquire as the intent of our company, our purpose or what kind of person I am now. I was living in Westchester NY until I moved back to Ohio 3 weeks ago. This can verified by the Barony of Northshield and many others.

I don't know who posted this as they were to craven to use their name. However, they are not some one who sat at my table. Those who I were my friends in "the old days" would not post such a thing. My hospitality was well known and I was liked enough that I sometimes had friends who drove over 2 hours to my home for a party. I recieved the wolf's head favor of Viscountess Moria and was her favorite make-up artist. Whoever you are, I want an apology. I have not even been active in the SCA since 1995 and you do not know the person that I am in 2003. You didn't even know me in the "old days" you knew OF me perhaps yet we all know how false and malicious gossip ususally is. As for our name it is "The HavenHoldeAlliance Incorporated" We are completely separate entity from the SCA. We emailed James Pratt(March of HavenHolde Senechal) well in advance of incorporating and my daughter asked to present this plan to the Marche. Her email was ignored. Anyone with any knowlegde of TRIBAL cultures know the Native Americans, Ainu and many other tribal societies PRESERVED and honored nature. These attacks upon my daughter, myself and our company are totally baseless.

Folks, let's keep some perspective on this stuff. I don't think shire names are copywritten and even if they were this group's name would probably be different enough that it wouldn't matter. I don't think a group in West Virginia's activities will have either a good or bad reflection on a small shire in the west of Ohio and I really don't think it's worth getting up in arms over.

This group's activities will either work out or not but it really won't have much bearing on the Springfield shire either way.

It would be wise for them to talk with the SCA Inc. about making reference to the SCA. Since this is a non-SCA group they should be careful not to give the appearance of speaking for the organization, in the same way an SCA group should avoid speaking for any other living history group.

But that's a different matter.

And to Angie and company, a bit thicker skin would be a good thing to develop. Folks from all sides will always be quick to scoff, not just from the SCA but from everywhere. Your idea is quite offbeat and plenty of people will like to target it. Heck, people criticize the SCA every day so who are we to talk really? I can't say that I share your vision or even give you a high chance of getting this off the ground, I'm too much a realist for that. But there are certainly worse things people could be trying to accomplish so what the hey?

-Nico

Not to mention the poor quality of the water, and open sewage in the streets.

Then perhaps you should have contacted say... the baronacy, Berach and Myfanwy to inquire if your previous "emails" were unanswered. Or maybe you should have PHONED James to see, It's listed inthe white pages and in the midrealm webpage, and could be gotten via Milptas.

You had any number of OTHER easily obtainable contacts if the ONE email fo the seneschal comes up unreturned.

Of course he might have changed email, it might be an account he no longer (or rarely) checks, it might have bounced due to a server error and never arrived - or you might have simply emailed the wrong perosn and they didn't bother to tell you. I know I don't respond to messages t hat dont make sense, I just hit delete.

ONE person not responding to you does not give you a waiver to proceed.

"Sounds like another hippie pipe dream." I am a long time member of the SCA who has been to one of those Hippie pipe dreams and the SCA could learn a lot from them! Go to http://www.elflore.com and check out "Lothlorien". And I'm sure a lot of people made a fuss about their name too.

Its already being done by one other group see Justins Post;)

Thank you for being a realist..

Speaking as a Shawnee woman my ancestors never had that problem.. Niethier did many cultures of the world.. You are speaking of cities in medeval Europe. This was not indicative of the planet as a whole I.E China,Japan,Tribal Americans etc

Sorry, that should have been http://www.elflore.org for "Lothlorien".

This is true, I was refering to Medeval Europe. Considering this is most of they the SCA is about... its an easy thing to assume.

in debate this is called a "Strawman"

Just as a side note it only seems fair to point at that practically all the comments posted to this list are anonymous, including posts clearly written by the offended parties who are directly involved with this project.

If the folks defining, creating and defending this don't sign their names to it, why should anyone else?

It also appears that any given post is listed as anonymous unless the poster registers for the site, something most people who are not actively involved are going to want to do.

As to contacting the seneschal of the Marche of Havenholde, it seems reasonable to allow to a couple of emails does not really constitute a concerted attempt to contact him. If obtaining the groups blessing for this use of their name was really important, it is again reasonable to expect a more formalized letter, perhaps even by registered mail, and some follow up phone calls. Email is notoriously unreliable, and, in a legal sense, does not constitute an attempt to contact someone. I am not a member of Havenholde, but it seems to me that if that group does indeed have an issue with the use of their name, regardless of the reason or the intent behind such use, the honourable and chivalrous thing to do would be to stop using it and use something else. While it may be intended as an honour, if it is not perceived as such, and causes offense or distress, then it is, in fact not an honour. Legally, all this is a non issue; as a matter of honour, however, it is quite relevent. Since it does not appear that the Havenholde Alliance would want to create discord for their spiritual forebears, perhaps they ought to consider a change to something not already in use by an SCA affiliate thus avoiding these misunderstandings and conflicts. This would eliminate all the issues that seem to have to have set people at odds.

I wasn't trying to be mean. I simply meant that you might want to rethink the name so that you didn't paint a target on yourself as some folks knew you had problems there and would misunderstand. I was NOT trying to inflame or be mean to you, just reminding you to choose carefully. Hugs. Be well.

Perhaps you mean the Canton of Northpass?

Humble resident of the Principality of Northshield, Midrealm.